Time to scrap unreliable Thameslink from the Woolwich line?
Another day and another Thameslink train on the Woolwich line due to a “planning error”. An all too familiar occurrence.
With a poor service for years and negative impacts upon Southeastern services it runs alongside is it time to ask, was the decision to run Thameslink via Greenwich and Woolwich Arsenal a mistake.
Compounding the feeling is another Southeastern timetable change set to bring minimal improvements to areas of major growth across south east London and north Kent from December.
Late addition to plans
If we look back to the time before Thameslink’s upgrade was complete there was no plan to run along the Woolwich line into north Kent and Medway. It was a decision made late on before the project’s completion.
An issue arose whereby Thameslink had too many trains and not enough routes to operate. While some routes to Southeastern destinations had been proposed such as Maidstone and Ashford this never happened. In addition changes to services on the Wimbledon loop ensured some last minute changes to intended service patterns
And so Thameslink came to the Woolwich line.
Not very successfully (at first) it must be said. For a long time just one train ran per hour operated due to a lack of drivers. When the full two services each hour did finally commence services skipped three stations between London Bridge and Slade Green by sailing through Woolwich Dockyard, Belvedere and Erith despite running no faster than all-stopping Southeastern services that call at all three.
This is due to the nature of Thameslink having to run through the route’s central core between London Bridge and St Pancras resulting in all trains needing to meet their selected path and so additional padding is built into services. In south east London that means skipping three stations seeing many new homes – and set to see many more.
Lopsided service
It also impacted the regular, clock face times of services that previously ran along the line. As an example, Abbey Wood saw eight trains off-peak per hour to London Bridge of which six went via Greenwich and two via Lewisham. The Greenwich trains would depart at, say, 02, 12, 22, 32, 42 and 52 past the hour with a regular 10 minute gap.
Thameslink blew that away through the need to accommodate it by threading between Southeastern services. Still, it wasn’t terrible. Gaps weren’t too bad though Thameslink reliability remained and remains very poor.
Driver shortages persist and any issue in the core or north of London and that’s a cut for services in south east London and north Kent.
Southeastern cuts
Things however took a turn for the worse when cuts to Southeastern services were made in 2022 with the removal of two trains per hour off-peak along the Woolwich line via Greenwich.
From six Southeastern trains per hour before Thameslink through Greenwich to four Southeastern and two Thameslink, it then became just two Southeastern and two Thameslink.
With trains bunched three minutes apart it led to 27 minute gaps at stations such as Greenwich and Deptford when for years they’d been every ten minutes.
That’s now improved but far from the standard seen a decade or more ago of six trains per hour running every ten minutes. And plenty more homes have and are being built around these stations.
North Kent housing growth
Southeastern also now operate no trains linking major growth areas such in north Kent past Dartford to the Elizabeth line at Abbey Wood which is instead operated by the flaky two trains per hour Thameslink service. They operate just two per hour from Dartford to Abbey Wood.
With Dartford borough a major growth area and seeing some of the highest levels of new residential construction in the entire country, such a poor service to the Elizabeth line is a bit of a nonsense.
Cuts also exacerbate Thameslink not calling at Woolwich Dockyard, Erith and Belvedere along the line. Stations it must be said that in major housing growth areas.
In the past year Thameslink stated they may possibly be able to stop at one station of the three in future.
Yet that’s not really a long term solution given Woolwich Dockyard is near the eastern end of the 8,000-home Charlton Riverside masterplan and sees other development sites nearby including the major Morris Walk estate rebuild now all but complete in places, while Erith is seeing hundreds of new homes.
Belvedere has nearly 2,000 on the drawing board, and Bexley Council propose thousands more at both towns.
This all results in a feeling that Thameslink as it is simply isn’t a long-term realistic proposition for the area if housing continues to rise.
Which brings us back to the question of whether it’s time to go back to service levels in the early to mid 2010s before Thameslink and before Southeastern cuts which saw eight trains per hour through Woolwich and six through Greenwich and Deptford?
Improved connections to Elizabeth line
It could also permit more services from north Kent to Abbey Wood rather than the meagre two per hour operated by Thameslink at present.
With eight trains per hour through Abbey Wood as existed before Thameslink, four could run to Medway/Gravesend with four rounders offering two trains per hour looping round to both the Sidcup and Bexleyheath lines connecting to Abbey Wood for the Elizabeth line.
Much of this was once on the cards when the goal was to link many stations to Abbey Wood for interchange possibilities. That then faltered and we’ve got the poor service levels seen today.
The main goal of ditching Thameslink being to both improve links to the Liz line from north Kent and other areas of SE London as well as restore six well-spaced trains calling at Greenwich and Deptford where thousands more homes are proposed near both stations.
If that means removing the somewhat last minute and unplanned addition of Thameslink to the north Kent line, it may be a price worth paying. As someone who uses Thameslink regularly to reach stations on the core as well as interchange to take trains north it’d be a pain personally but the benefits appear to outweigh the negatives. And I’d miss the air con in summer.
Yet we know Thameslink won’t call at three skipped stations despite housing growth around each due to the need to reach the core. That’s an intractable problem. They also cannot exactly cut many stations in north Kent now seeing hundreds if not thousands of homes rising.
Threading Thameslink trains through Southeastern services was a compromise almost a decade ago when announced. That will only increase with new housing and development.
Maybe because the Elizabeth Line wants to extend to Dartford and Gravesend and of course 10 more Class 345s are to be built to add the total of Elizabeth Line trains to 80 9-Car trains.
The Liz line isn’t being extended for 50 years – if ever – to N. Kent.
No gov is spending the billions it would cost. Realistically the issue is how to improve connections using existing infrastructure.
Ok perhaps you’re right about that. But still the Elizabeth Line could still its extension to Gravesend in the mid/late 2030s or in the 2040s. Who knows if it does happen or not. Same with the Bakerloo Line extension to Lewisham and Bromley/Hayes.
I find the trains nicer and the direct connectivity to Blackfriars, King’s Cross and Luton Airport useful. Also, when the Southeastern trains out of Cannon St are messed up due to signal failures, it’s often Thameslink that saves the day by continuing to run out of London Bridge. It’s true, I find it less useful these days, due to the Liz Line, but I would be pity to lose it. What I would like, is for the Woolwich/Blackheath trains to return to running to Charing Cross.
It depends where you live. Somewhere with six SouthEastern trains each hour would see the two extra Thameslink as a nice bonus. Somewhere with just two SouthEastern trains would not be so favourable I’d guess. Thameslink goes down far more often than SouthEastern owing to the very long routes either side of central London leaving those specific areas with a weak service. Add in the ever present driver shortages and it’s a nuisance much of the time. Fine when it works but that’s not a given. I do miss the days of trains every ten minutes in Deptford. Since Thameslink it’s quite often now a thirty minute level of service if one is delayed or cancelled which for inner London is frankly rubbish in 2025. It’s a tale also seen in outer London and Kent connecting from Dartford to Crossrail. Thameslink departs five minutes after SouthEastern heading to the Elizabeth line then there’s a 25 minute gap. All so Thameslink can find it’s slot in central London. It’s a poor use of resources detracting from efficient use of the line.
I totally agree with Woolwich Resident I too like the Thamrslink Trains and the connectivity to King’s Cross and Blackfriars.
But what I really want to see are the Charing Cross services reintroduced on the Woolwich and Blackheath Lines on a daily basis. These services were very popular and not everyone can use the underground or get to an underground station. So please bring the Charing Cross services back..
Sorry but I don’t agree with this take. I’ve used it several times to get to Kings Cross / St Pancras and have found it to be a net positive overall.
It’s useful for me too on a personal level but that doesn’t outweigh the downsides along the entire line serving a number of growth areas. Thameslink cannot serve all three stations it skips and it doesn’t thread very well between Southeastern services hampering frequency and service intervals along the entire line. For the greatest good, dropping it and restoring SE services as they were ten years ago would benefit many. A change at London Bridge for onward travel to Farringdon, St Pancras etc isn’t a huge issue given a train runs every 5 mins.
I agree with James G, the Thameslink service gives useful direct travel options that aren’t available from other transport options in the area, & it’s also insulated from issues affecting Southeastern specifically, such as strikes by their drivers, or problems at cannon st. The idea that SE services would be improved to previous levels if only Thameslink wasn’t getting in the way is a red herring – SE service levels & frequency could be substantially improved currently with the Thameslink service as it is, but there has been little to no appetite to do so (as frequently covered on this site). So to imagine that if Thameslink was withdrawn the SE service would return to 2010 levels is unfounded, I would say. I would prefer a better SE service is built/rebuilt around the 2tph Thameslink service, personally.
But only if Thameslink works and it often doesn’t work, also the Thameslink is a slow and pointless duplicate of the HS1 service at Medway and Gravesend, and the EL at Abbey Wood and Woolwich, if you wanted Thameslink destinations these are much faster alternatives, I say get rid of Thameslink.
I agree. I live in Dartford and find the Thameslink service very useful. To lose it would remove options and make travelling into key central London locations far less convenient.
In Dartford it’s quicker to board the first train to London Bridge then change to Thameslink which are extremely frequent from there when heading north through the core. It’s also quicker for destinations such as Farringdon to change at Abbey Wood. A direct train is a nice thing to have but but given the downsides ot presents probably not the best for all towns along the North Kent line. I’d prefer the Southeastern service of old with more regular stopper services and the semi-fasts. Factor in the Elizabeth line now and far improved Thameslink at London Bridge (now it’s 20 trains and hour there and I remember when it was just four short trains an hour) and on balance I can see merit in losing Thameslink to boost other services as handy as it can be.
Depending on where you live, you can either get the EL at Abbey Wood or Woolwich to Farringdon and change for a service to Kings Cross, or if you’re in Medway or Gravesend, HS1 will get you directly to Kings X St.Pancras
Thameslink isn’t needed
“I’ve used it several times to get to Kings Cross” and how many times have they been cancelled?
The catford loop could do with these trains if you don’t want them.
I’ve always hoped to see the back of these trains, sure they go to North London, St.Albans and Luton, but on a daily basis how many need/go to these areas? And could these journeys not be quicker via the EL and change at Farringdon?
I’ve never seen the point in the Thameslink serving the Greenwich & Woolwich lines, they replaced a well used and handy semi fast service which in the era of the EL at Abbey Wood would be handy for those at Medway/Gravesend for a fast link.
Whenever Thameslink fails in North London, they always cancel the Rainham service, what SE need to do is up the frequency on the Woolwich and Greenwich lines once Thameslink is removed
It’s all very well wanting 6 trains an hour on the North Kent lines. But the problem is congestion once you get to London Bridge. If you see how many trains arrive at London Bridge from all over the South and terminating at Cannon st and Charing Cross plus the Bedford and Luton services, it’s just not viable. Plus you have the Southern trains to deal with. The London Terminus Stations have not got the capacity to berth anymore trains than it already does.
The British railway just hasn’t got the infrastructure to get more trains running that is the problem.
Six trains per hour ran on the line before London Bridge was rebuilt and platforms increased during the major rebuild in the latter half of the 2010s. The reason services were cut is down to DfT demands for cuts and not capacity at either London Bridge or terminals.
Prior to Covid there was 8tph and had been the case since the early noughties, it’s more than doable
The Woolwich Dockyard example is a bit of a stretch, as it’s not an especially long walk from Woolwich Arsenal (or a short bus ride). This is the experience for thousands of people around London: Hackney Wick for example, has a much higher number of new builds around Fish Island. To get into the City proper, however, you either take the Mildmay to Stratford, or walk to Bow Road; either way you’re looking at 15 minutes added.
This is still a far better proposition than somewhere like Braintree; fifteen minutes walk to the railway station for the single train between 5 and 6am would be considered paradise. No, the Thameslink service may be flawed, but if you want to get into the West End quickly, a train to Farringdon and the Metropolitan to Euston Square takes just under thirty minutes from Westcombe Park.
Just checked on Google and someone moving into new homes near Woolwich Dockyard would have a six minute walk to that station or 25 to Woolwich. Could get a bus but then have to walk out the way to a stop and wait for a bus. Might as well save the 20 mins heading out to Woolwich (higher zone fare as well being Z4) and use a Woolwich Dockyard to reach London Bridge and change. No slower to do that, and if a fair few people do in the eastern part of the 8k Charlton Riverside masterplan area then WD would see a healthy boost in patronage. There’s other potential plots aside from the master plan near the station we could possibly see new residential development.
I accept though that it’s hardly the worst served by a long shot and those homes are many years off. Belvedere would probably get going before and benefit from more stopping services.
Woolwich Dockyard would be handy for some moving to Woolwich Barracks now plans for housing there have been unveiled. Somebody who works around London Bridge, Waterloo and the south bank or the West End could walk there in a reasonable time for a train (with change at LBG if needed) Being zone 3 it’s cheaper than Woolwich Arsenal in Z4 and closer from part of the site. With the Elizabeth line station already really busy we also probably don’t want thousands more people using it daily if can be helped.
I think it depends on where you live. I love having the direct route to St Pancras and use it most days and is always busy. Not everybody likes to chop and change trains, especially if you have a learning difficulty, travelling with children or even carrying cases. Yes there should be trains more often but having a mix of destinations works well and great to have an alternative if south eastern is having problems.
I can’t see Thameslink to scrap the Dartford and Gravesend service to & from Luton/St. Albans City. Perhaps Thameslink might operate to Hayes and to add more services that could see Thameslink expand across Southeast England. There were plans to extend Thameslink services to Guildford and Woking but that too wouldn’t happen because of Crossrail 2.
Perhaps when Thameslink comes under government control stock will move to other areas that could do with them, and the Charlton route sees a restoration of SE services before some were axed in the December 2022 timetable. I’m in the camp of being a user but can see it’s an awkward fit among SE services and not a net benefit for the entire line when factoring the many thousands of people who travel along it daily. It always appeared a last minute panic decision due to political pressure on the west London loop (Thameslink was supposed to go through to North London but passengers there resisted so only to Blackfriars) and that in turn saw the Lutons go to Rainham via Charlton. Pretty odd then and never really a well thought through plan. It was almost a panic measure really (I know as was employed at the time by GTR). All very rushed hence so few staff available to drive the trains when it begun. We hadn’t trained many!
Lots of late running this evening from Thameslink and of course the obligatory “cancelled due to a planning error”. How many planning errors can one company make?
The Thameslink trains run more often than they don’t and perform a useful purpose.
The Elizabeth line doesn’t help at most of the stations.
No reason to withdraw them if Network Rail schedulers do their work better than now.
The Thameslink doesn’t work most days there is always some issue, get rid of Thameslink and bring back the old CX to Gillingham service
The North Kent line through through to Dartford should really be an 8-10 tph line. Zone 1-Charlton is busy and well-developed enough to justify it. Charlton-Dartford would provide excellent connectivity with Elizabeth line at Abbey Wood for those commuting in from further afield.
The question is where do you put all those trains when they arrive in Central London!
What I’d love to see is a Thameslink 2 development, which connects the Great Northern service at Moorgate with Cannon St and London Bridge. It could be used to relieve congestion on and provide a degree of degeneracy for the Thameslink central section, and open up for more options for north-south travel
The trains would go where they went when the line has 8-10 tph for 15+ years until Thameslink begun. The capacity is there and possibly easier now as more through platforms at London Bridge and more grade separation on the approach.
People forget the line for many years had higher TPH than it does now in part due to cuts and another is Thameslink.
If we were to apply the same logic, we’d have to scrape the entire system in this country because it’s utterly unreliable.
Nope as TL is quite unlike many other lines. It’s a relatively new addition in its current form which compromised existing service frequency and station stops on the Woolwich line due to running through the central core and the need to find its “slot” en route. Most trains in London terminate in central termini and do not need to run through a constrained two-track central core as TL does. The Liz line does but efforts made there to contain or separate from fast services past Paddington in the west and Stratford in the east. Abbey Wood branch is self contained. It doesn’t go past Abbey Wood to avoid cross-pollution of SE and EL services. Thameslink does feed into SE services and that’s an issue for reliability and service levels.
It’s unreliability exacerbates service reductions – but even if absolutely perfect it still causes compromises (fewer stops at some stations in line for mass housing growth and reduced TBH) than existed for many years before.
Still can’t see your logic, but like many folks commenting here let’s agree to disagree! 🙂
Sorry but unlike most of your posts, totally disagree with this one – the direct connection to the likes of Kings cross, Blackfriars, Farringdon and Luton are all extremely helpful!
Helpful to you and helpful to me (I used it on Thursday and Friday) but mid to long term not useful to many thousands if it 1) Limits trains per hour along the Woolwich line and 2) Ensures trains do not stop in areas in line for mass housing growth such as Belvedere.
Ultimately what’s best for the greatest number of people on available infrastructure? As much as I find it handy, increasing TPH to higher levels seen throughout the 2010s would likely see a bigger gain from the available infrastructure with TL diverted to other growth areas that could do with increases such as Catford which is another area projected for major housing growth including retail sheds near the station.
Anyone who wants to go north to St Pancras etc can change at London Bridge where TL run every 5-10 mins. A pain compared to direct services but if more trains per hour run to London Bridge the net result is no great difference most of the time at worst – while service frequency of SE improves and stations gain more stops/faster journeys
You can change at London Bridge for an every 15 minute service to Bedford to Luton which is quicker then sitting on stopping service.
Thameslink should retain the Gravesend and Rainham service and not scrap them. And I think that Thameslink could extend more services including Reigate, Tattenham Corner, Epsom Downs and Caterham with GTR to be re-nationalised and brought back to public ownership from May 31st next year.
If Southeastern can get an improved service and faster services plus a return of Charing Cross trains then I’m happy to get rid of Thameslink quite frankly