What can be done to retain axed 472 bus after TfL approves cut
News that Transport for London are axing one of south east London’s busiest bus routes in the form of the 472 as part of Superloop plans for route SL11 has brought to mind many questions given it contradicts many stated aims of both TfL and Greenwich Council.
A number of questions arose following the announcement earlier this week such as:
- Why have Greenwich council’s Labour leadership supported cuts to buses including those stopping at many major residential development sites along the route?
- Why did only one solitary councillor in Greenwich borough raise the issue? Nothing from MPs.
- Why is this area the only place in London that sees a route entirely cut for a Superloop service rather than supplemented – despite being one of the main London areas for housing growth?
- Why did both Labour and Tory in Bexley raise concerns but Labour and Tory in Greenwich borough – where 90+ per cent of the route operates – say little?
- Why do TfL and Greenwich claim to support improved transport in Thamesmead then cut services serving a major new development in the town?
- Why are Greenwich council supporting bus cuts while pushing controlled parking zones and public transport use?
- Is North Greenwich bus station at capacity due to Greenwich and TfL letting developer Knight Dragon off a 2020 obligation to improve it?
Naturally from these points flow other issues. For example, if North Greenwich bus station is unable to handle both the 472 and SL11 what then? Could the 472 have been retained but the destination move to Lewisham?
Since the 180 moved from Lewisham to North Greenwich, rail services to Lewisham from places such as Charlton, Woolwich, Plumstead and Abbey Wood have been reduced thus there’s scope for improved bus services.
These are issues a competent local authority may have asked, but it’s Greenwich so that’s not happened. It may make relatively little sense to have an all-stopping 472 duplicate the SL11 entirely (even if it will call at thousands of new homes the SL11 will skip) but an altered route? That brings benefits.
At the other end of the 472 could it have shifted from running via Western Way in Thamesmead to running instead along Nathan Way past the 1,913-homes Lombard Square development in West Thamesmead with the first residents set to move in in September 2025.
After all it ran that way until 2018. It’s current routing was not the norm for some years.
Underpass
As it stands residents moving to Lombard Square will need to use a grimy, secluded underpass to reach most bus services or Plumstead station. It’s seeing a splash of paint currently but you’d be hard pressed to find anyone locally who believes:
- It will be maintained
- That’s sufficient to make it a route many would use
In Woolwich town centre the SL11 will not stop on General Gordon Square in Woolwich as the 472 currently does. That means avoiding Woolwich’s new leisure centre which is opening soon plus almost 500 homes planned on site and 700 nearby around the Tesco superstore at Woolwich Central.
It also means no stop beside Woolwich Arsenal station serving the DLR, Southeastern and Thameslink. Retaining the 472 would see those stops still served.
Those changes in Woolwich town centre mean more people will walk from General Gordon Square to the stops outside the Elizabeth line to catch a bus – but the Greenwich do little about that route being blocked almost daily with all sorts of pavement rubbish from the shops along there.
Then when Woolwich Exchange starts the entire pavement along here may be blocked during years of construction. No forward thinking.
On the opposite side of the street they’ve recently limited pedestrian space with raised planters despite more footfall on the way.
Another reason to retain a 472 would be stops between Woolwich and Charlton enabling those moving into 700 new homes at Trinity Square and homes further down in Charlton to see no loss in buses.
Silence
These are all points an authority that cared about transport would make during a consultation phase.
However Greenwich Council did none of them ensuring thousands of new residents (let alone existing) moving into new homes will see fewer buses than at present with reduced links to shops, schools, colleges and employment.
And remember this is a cut supported by Labour Greenwich Council that raised no mitigating ideas for areas impacted. All while supposedly encouraging public transport usage. Amazing work.
Did you see TFL putting out stories about increasing safety for women using buses today after this bus cut which means people will have to walk further to reach home or work or school? Utter hypocrites.
Same as Greenwich. Is the leader aiming for a promotion and sucking up to Khan and throwing his council residents under the bus – so to speak.
Open goal for the greens and this new Corbyn party if they stand locally? You’d have thought they’d have learned from losing a recent borough election to the Greens in a previously safe Labour seat but the leaders appear aloof and arrogant.
I’ve got it.
Reduce public transport to encourage residents to use cars.
Introduce CPZs to make money from those cars.
Cunning.
Labour are an anachronism. Dead now to the everyday working person. A bunch of rich people pontificating to everyone else. That’s why they’ve lost the youth and most others. Zombie party led by self serving money grabbers looking at their own wallets. Let’s hope they’re destroyed in the next local elections. Bring on Zarah Sultana and the crew! New Labour are yesterday’s news.
Every journey matters, eh?
Not every joirney counts to TFL and Greenwich Council that is definite Nick. Not only are they backing the axing of route 472 completely. Replacing it with an express route SL11 which will not stop close to where people live etc. They will now face long walks to and from a bus stop or having to change buses to reach their destination. This is far from ideal and not providing safer transport for women children and vulnerable people.
Route SL11 should continue operate along side route 472 and should not replace 472. Other parts of London did not see bus routes axed when superloop routes were introduced. Greenwich gets a raw deal from TFL and Greenwich Council.
However, I am not surprised by Greenwich Councillors they backed Sadiq Khan and TFL when reducing the number of bus routes serving the Silvertown Town from 5 to 2 passenger services leaving many areas witb out a bus service through the new tunnel. Chris makes a good point about cutting public transport to encouraging drivers to use their cars more han introduced more CPZ’s to make more money from these schemes.
Not every joirney counts to TFL, Greenwich Council or Len Duvall the Labour GLA member for Greenwich and Lewisham at City Hall that is definite Nick W.Not only are they backing the axing of route 472 completely. Replacing it with an express route SL11 which will not stop close to where people live etc. They will now face long walks to and from a bus stop or having to change buses to reach their destination. This is far from ideal and not providing safer transport for women children and vulnerable people.
Route SL11 should continue operate along side route 472 and should not replace 472. Other parts of London did not see bus routes axed when superloop routes were introduced. Greenwich gets a raw deal
from TFL and Greenwich Council.
However, I am not surprised by Greenwich Councillors they backed Sadiq Khan and TFL when reducing the number of bus routes serving the Silvertown Town from 5 to 2 passenger services leaving many areas witb out a bus service through the new tunnel. Chris makes a good point about cutting public transport to encouraging drivers to use their cars more han introduced more CPZ’s to make more money from these schemes.
Not where Sadiq Khan, TFL, Greenwich Council or Len Duvall the Labour GLA member for Greenwich and Lewisham at City Hall are concerned.
They also backed reducing the number of passenger bus services using the Silvertown Tunnel from. 5 to 2 bus services. Leaving large areas with out a bus service through the tunnel to open up new opportunities for work etc.
I totally agree with you CDT, Graham, Chris and all the comments raised in response to the axing of the 472 bus route.
We need to see more buses not less to cope with demand of residents moving in to new developments and existing residents. We have further new developments planned or due to be completed soon.
But as usual we are seeing no real investment in infrastructure or amenities.
Axing the 472 will achieve nothing and just cause inconvenience to existing passengers who will be forced to walk further to bus stops or have to change buses which will entail further waits between buses. This is not acceptable and goes against Greenwich Council policy to make the Borough safer for women and girls.
Route 472 must be retained.
For me the writing on the wall on how Grennwich cares little about transport links was when:
1: How they allowed the 180 to be altered in such a pointless manner, severing long established links between Abbey Wood & Lewisham, and making it harder to travel between Charlton & Lewisham.
2: The lack of pushback when SE sneakily changed the timetable in 2022
The fact that this is going ahead sadly doesn’t surprise me, why does the 472 need to be replaced when other Superloop routes run alongside the stopping routes? Why can’t the 472 just be extended further west if NG bus station can no longer accommodate extra buses? The 472 could be extended to Greenwich town centre to partially replace the old 180, or even further west to Canada Water? Likewise why does the SL11 have to terminate at NG? Could it not be extended cross the river via Silvertown tunnel to somewhere north of the river? To Stratford or Hackney?
None of this makes any sense to me
Furthermore extending the SL11 to north of the river will enable the 472 to remain terminating at NG
That’s not a bad shout at all. Would open cross river links. Nowhere east of Greenwich got anything from Silvertown bus routes.
A route from Thamesmead to Stratford or Hackney would be useful I feel, but as ever TfL will say “use the Lizzie line”
Absolutely agree with you N that would make perfect sense. Route 472 was introduced so the route could run between Thamesmead and North Greenwich Station. Replacing old route 272 which used to operate between Thamesmead and Woolwich only.
I remember the old 272/X72 routes very well, originally the plan was to keep the 272 and just extend it to Greenwich and have the X72 run along side it running fast from North Greenwich to Woolwich then fast to Thamesmead and serving that towns bus stops to Thamesmead East, then they changed it last minute to the 472 by merging the 272/X72 routes
I could understand introducing an express bus service to North Greenwich Station when that was the nearest Underground Station for the Jubilee Line. But now we have the Elizabeth Stations at Abbey Wood and Woolwich it seems that are introducing it after the horse as bolted so to speak. I agree route 472 should remain as it is. The new SL11 could run from Thamesmead to Statford, Hackney, etc via the Silvertown Tunnel.. Providing much needed essential bus links between east and south east London
At the same time TFL could extend the route 301 to Charlton as planned with the route route being re-routed through the Charlton Riverside development once developments works near completion and the new road layout through the development is created. This would also help reduce the congestion of parked buses near Riverside House where the road narrows towards Wookwich Ferry.
Absolutely C that would also make a lot of sense. Route 301 currently operates Bexleyheath to Wookwich via parts of Abbey Wood and Thamesmead. I know the stretch of road where the 301 stands with other bus routes along Beresford Street and it does narrow a part of the road making it harder for cyclists and motorists to pass.
472 is one of the best buses so far, for all people, especially the secondary school students, though they have their school buses. It will be a lot of waiting now for everyone going to school, work or other places. I hope this can be changed